G: IT MAKES SENSE THAT YOU WERE ORIGINALLY A HISTORY MAJOR AS YOUR CAREER HAS BEEN A JAZZ HISTORY LESSON. YOU TOOK LESSONS FROM LENNIE TRISTANO. WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM THOSE DAYS?
LIEB: I was young when I went to Lennie, maybe in my late teens or early 20s. I really didn’t know who he was, except that he taught jazz, and believe it or not, there was nobody in New York that you could go to in order to learn it, at least who I knew of.
Lennie had the pick of the litter; he had a lot of students on all instruments. His lessons averaged 8-10 minutes. As we know, he had a system, but I wasn’t ready for him. The final lesson centered around my love of Coltrane. One Sunday I came into the lesson with a lot of energy having seen Trane’s group the night before. I had been studying with Lennie for about 9 months and was all excited from Trane’s group the night before. Lennie just says: “They ain’t playing s—; Elvin hasn’t played good since he came to New York”, etc., etc. I couldn’t face him anymore after that, so that was the end of the lessons. But what I did get from Lennie was that there was actually a way to learn this music…it’s not all “voodoo”. In other words, the appearance that what these guys played was “voodoo” or magical without any explanation was what I thought it was about. Remember, in the generations before mine, the musicians did not talk about the music much. Lennie demonstrated that there was a method to the madness.
G: YOU AND JOHN MCLAUGHLIN WERE AMONG THE FIRST JAZZERS TO PLAY INDIAN MUSIC IN JAZZ. HOW DID THAT WHOLE THING COME ABOUT?
LIEB: I had met (percussionist) Badal Roy when he was with me on John McLaughlin’s 1970 My Goal’s Beyond album. After Roy and I played on Miles Davis’ On The Corner session. We established a nice relationship. It was like seeing an old friend when I walked into the session and saw him. I was enamored with Indian classical music and got more interested in it. I acquired one of those wooden bansuri flutes (which I still have). I lived in California for a year in the mid-70s and took lessons from a student of Ali Akbar Khan. I fell in love with the music.
I think Indian classical is one of the heaviest of all idioms including jazz when one thinks about world music. It’s a deep music which you have to live with every day.
G: IT’S INTERESTING THAT YOU PLAY BOTH KINDS OF “INDIAN” MUSIC, MEANING NOT ONLY SOUTHERN ASIAN INDIAN, BUT ALSO SOUNDS OF AMERICAN INDIAN THAT SOUND LIKE SOMETHING FROM MONUMENT VALLEY…
LIEB:(laughs) I do have an eclectic musical personality. I love different influences. Miles was a great example of that, as was Picasso; artists who were always themselves but constructed their surroundings different and therefore sounded or looked different. That lesson stayed with me. In a several year period Miles recorded On The Corner, Get Up With It, Jack Johnson, etc. all quite different than My Funny Valentine, but he still played the way he did no matter the circumstances. He just surrounded himself with different people and therefore different influences. He had the pick of the litter because he was Miles Davis so he could get Herbie or Chick and all the other guys from that period as they all loved to play with him. The ‘70s was a period of eclecticism where “eclectic” was not a dirty word as it was before: “You’re eclectic; you do a little of this and a little of that.” What eclecticism means is a mixture of stylistic differences, but the core is still you and the way that you play.
G:1969-72 WAS REALLY THE BEGINNING OF WHAT BECAME “FUSION” AND YOUR RECORDING OUTPUT FROM THAT PERIOD REFLECTED THE WIDE RANGE OF SOUNDS COMING OUT. YOU WERE ON McLAUGHLIN’S MY GOALS BEYOND, TEN WHEEL DRIVE’s BRIEF REPLIES, AND THEN ELVIN JONES’ ALBUMS AS WELL AS MILES DAVIS’ PLUGGED IN SESSIONS. WHAT WAS ‘IN THE AIR’ AT THAT TIME MUSICALLY?
LIEB: We came from a generation that grew up musically in the ‘60s as far as influences goes. You couldn’t ignore Jimi Hendrix, the Beatles, Akbar Khan, the Bulgarian Girls Choir, etc. We would have listening sessions which might include Jimi’s “If 6 was 9” and then go to Bartok’s String Quartet #5, then Bill Evans maybe. We were partaking in all of the available styles that were finally easy to get recordings of. That wasn’t true before then….as you had to do your research to find Indian music for example. The ‘70s were a time when musicians like me were really influenced by what was going on around us. After Miles laid down the electric gauntlet, we were all in there with him for the next couple of years.
G: EVEN WITH THAT ECLECTIC ATTITUDE, YOU MUST HAVE BEEN SURPRISED BY HOW MUCH MILES DAVIS’ MUSIC HAD CHANGED IN SUCH A SHORT TIME. WHAT WAS YOUR INITIAL REACTION? DID YOU THINK “HE’S LOST IT”? “THIS IS BEYOND MY THOUGHT PROCESS”? WERE YOU OVERWHELMED?
LIEB: All of the above (laughs). First of all, to play with Miles Davis was beyond an honor. It’s the top of the food chain as far as a sideman gig goes. The truth is that I WAS confused. I didn’t know what the hell was going on. I could hardly hear myself even though I plugged into 800 watts of Marshall amps behind me! But one night it became clear. After a gig, Miles would always invite us to his room where he’d have a cassette machine to listen. Most of the guys would leave after an hour, but I stayed. I don’t know what it was that night, as I’d been staying and listening to every night that we played, but somehow it all came into focus.
I looked at him and said: “Now I understand it”, and he answered (in his whisper) “I knew you would.” (laughs). I’ll be honest and had to pinch myself a few times: “Wouldn’t it have been great if this was 10 years earlier and I was on the Seven Steps to Heaven sessions with Wayne Shorter and Herbie, etc. I felt a little lost at sea with Miles…he didn’t talk about what we were doing He just got up and did it, and when he pointed to me I soloed.
Somewhere in the first year I finally understood. It was a little bit of jungle stuff, a little bit of bebop, definitely a bit of James Brown and definitely Sly and the Family Stone plus a little bit of world music. Remember, he hired Airto Moreira and Nana Vasconcelos before the word “percussion” or “world music” was on the map. When you played next to Miles you were automatically exposed to all of these things.
G: HAVE YOU EVER GONE BACK TO THESE ALBUMS AND RE-EVALUATED THEM? THEY ARE GETTING MUCH MORE APPRECIATION THESE DAYS.
LIEB: Yes. I wrote the liner notes for the reissues of Get Up With It and Dark Magus. Especially when I listened to Dark Magus live at Carnegie Hall, which I thought at the time was a complete disaster. When I heard it again, it was a lot better than I remembered. At this period Miles was using the wah-wah pedal a lot, and he really played his ass off every night. There’s a reason that he’s Miles Davis. Standing next to that force and relentless power was a trip even if the music didn’t make sense to me. Overall it was amazing that I was in the position of being his saxophone player.
G: THE OTHER PERIOD OF YOUR CAREER THAT IS BEING FAVORABLY REMEMBERED WERE YOUR HALCYON DAYS WITH ELVIN JONES.
LIEB: Well, you’re playing with the ocean, the earth and the sky at the same time (laughs). Elvin was a force of nature. He was a gentleman and a scholar. He was my favorite person; of all of the guys that I’ve met he was the most magnanimous and giving. He knew who he was…..he’d been around the block at least a couple of times…he was an experienced human being! He was a great teacher even if he rarely spoke in musical terms. Just being around him was an honor. The band we had with (Steve) Grossman and (Gene) Perla was one of his best groups, if not the top one that he had with young guys. He even said that himself years later. I think about him all of the time….he was such a presence. Of course, watching him with Coltrane the many times I saw him was unbelievable. You had to be there for the real lessons in the clubs of New York.
G: LIVE AT THE LIGHTHOUSE IS AN ABSOLUTE CLASSIC. HOW WAS THE AUDIENCE RESPONSE AT THE TIME?
LIEB: This period was about jazz and its common language. It wasn’t that different than what was going on in the mainstream. It had no piano or guitar, which was a little unusual for those days. Steve (Grossman), Gene and I were of the same generation and had played together a lot before being with Elvin. We were involved in the loft scene playing mostly quite free jazz.
Being with Elvin was the honor of all time. What can I say? He was Coltrane’s drummer! It was special!!
G: YOUR LONG TIME RELATIONSHIP WITH RICHIE BEIRACH, PARTICULARLY ON LOOKOUT FARM, HAS ALSO BEEN RE-APPRAISED AND APPRECIATED.
LIEB: Richie and I have done over sixty records together and are still doing it. He was my helmsman, the guy who pointed in the right direction and said: “Go 10 miles an hour instead of five.”
We had a good personal relationship and loved hanging out together, eating and listening to music. Richie is well informed about 20th century classical music and its relationship to jazz harmony. He’s a walking encyclopedia on Bartok to Beethoven.
If you’re not a piano player you don’t get a special seat in front of the music stand. Piano players have to know Beethoven, Bach and Brahms. If they don’t they are missing out on how their instrument is used. A saxophone player produces one note at a time….(s)he finishes the solo and he walks off the stage. Richie really helped me see harmony on a modern level constituting a relationship that goes on to this day.
G: LOOKOUT FARM STILL SOUNDS FRESH
(People do like it. We did sell a few copies (laughs)!
YOU ALWAYS SEEM TO BE MOVING MUSIC FORWARD, SO IT CAME AS A SURPRISE WHEN YOU WERE THE SAX PLAYER FOR THE CONCERT TOUR CELEBRATING THE ANNIVERSARY OF MILES DAVIS’ KIND OF BLUE.
LIEB: I was a hired gun. Whoever it was couldn’t make the gig and I got the call. I remember Jimmy Cobb was on the gig. I’ve done a Miles retrospective, as everyone has. If you look at my output, you do see a lot of tributes. It’s in the air all of the time. I’ve done Miles, Ornette, Monk, Kurt Weill, Cole Porter, Alex Wilder, and others. I’m always up for taking somebody’s music and putting my own stamp on it.
G: WITH ALL OF THESE PROJECTS, YOU SEEM MOST AT HOME WITH YOUR EXPANSIONS BAND, WHICH HAS DONE FUSION IN BOTH ELECTRIC AND ACOUSTIC SETTINGS, ALONG WITH YOUR MOST RECENT ALBUM, WHICH IS FIRST CLASS.
LIEB: You got it. It ends up that Expansions is Lookout Farm fifty years later. That album had four compositions, and each one was a different world. One was a rocky kind of thing, one was a Coltranish burn, one was a 20th century harmonic tune and one was Latin with percussion (John Abercrombie on acoustic guitar.) If I look at my musical life, I would say that it was formed right then with Lookout Farm which was my first real record as a leader. Those are still the idioms that fascinate me informing what I’ve done over the years. That plus the jazz repertoire is pretty much what I’ve been doing.
G: YOU ARE ONE OF THE FEW ARTISTS THAT HAS DUG INTO THE LAST PERIOD OF JOHN COLTRANE, WHOSE REPETOIRE IS ESSENTIALLY IGNORED AFTER A LOVE SUPREME.
LIEB: Especially with “Meditations” which I’ve done many times.
I believe that music has not been understood…similar to the audience’s reaction to Stravinsky’s Sacre. It sounded at times cacophonous with a lot of things going on at the same time…no direct harmony or steady pulse, etc. It was very different than the group with Elvin, McCoy and Jimmy and it was a little off-putting.
I remember one concert called “The Titans of the Tenor Sax” at Philharmonic hall in 1966. It had Sonny Rollins, Dexter Gordon, Zoot Sims, etc. Coltrane does the whole second set, starting by chanting “Om Mani Padne Aum” which is the heaviest Tibetan chant you could come up with. Finally he starts playing over the opening and the audience goes crazy cause they know “My Favorite Things.” From there it goes way out and within the hour at least half the audience left. He definitely outpaced the ability of his audience to keep up with it. Whether or not the Late Trane music occured at that time because he had a feeling that his end was impending, or that he was just bored with the other way of playing because Love Supreme was such a bit hit, I cannot say. But he was running. In ’65 he did 6-8 recordings, some of which didn’t come out until after he passed. It appeared to me that he was in a rush and the way he played was unbelievable….completely different than A Love Supreme.
G: WHAT IS YOUR COMFORT FOOD TO PLAY?
LIEB: I’m pretty easy to please. I like the spirit behind guys playing together. When I join up with a group on the road we can play “All Blues” and that’s fine with me.
G: WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR WHEN YOU HIRE GUYS TO FORM A BAND?
LIEB: They obviously have to like the music. They have to have a lot of energy because I like the music to be burning and intense. Not all the time, as there has to be a lyrical side….but they definitely have to able to burn. They should be curious about the musical questions that I’m posing to them as a sideman. Can we do this? Let’s go about it and build a house together.
G: YOU ALWAYS SEEK INTERESTING THINGS. IS THIS INQUISITIVENESS DUE TO BEING A HISTORY STUDENT? WHAT OR WHO INITIATED THIS SEARCHING PART OF YOUR PERSONALITY?
LIEB: Great question. I probably need to write a book on that alone. I have no idea….I think my friends could answer it better than I can. I put it to Miles’ influence. It’s something that I still think about in many ways. You can wear a different uniform but you should be curious as to what that costume suggests. I have a list of 10-15 projects that I still want to do. It’s part of my nature to be that way. It’s better to ask Richie about that! (laughs)
G: ANYTHING ABOUT MILES DAVIS THAT YOU WISHED PEOPLE KNEW?
I’ll tell you a quick story. He had a reputation for being kind of a meanie and he did have a Jekyll and Hyde personality. Maybe drugs was an influence on that. I was ill in the early 80s; I had broken my leg pretty badly and lived in Long Island about 80 miles from Manhattan. Al Foster (Miles Davis’ drummer) came to visit me. The next day the phone rings, and it’s Miles. He doesn’t say “hello” or anything, just “You need any money?” If a musician doesn’t work, he doesn’t get paid, just like the present situation that we’re in. I told him that I’m all right and I’m making do with some help. Then he said: “I’m going to tell you a quick story. One day I was 14 years old and my father took me out into the backyard. (Miles came from a pretty well-off family.) He asked me to look up into a tree. ‘What do you see? “It’s a bird” I told him: “It isn’t just a bird,” he said: “That’s a mockingbird, and you don’t ever want to be that.” I like that that, because Miles never told stories;…he talked as little as possible. That was a side of him that I know he had. He was really a nice guy and if he didn’t have the pressure of being the most famous black musician in the world he probably would have been a lot saner.
G: YOU GREW UP IN NEW YORK WITH JEWISH PARENTS. WAS THERE ANY PRESSURE NOT TO BE A MUSICIAN AND BE A DOCTOR OR A LAWYER”?
LIEB: You got the professions right! (laughs)
Definitely; it was a middle class home and as far as college education, the mantra was “you’re going to go to college.” This music thing is great as a hobby. Play club dates on the weekends; make some cash, which is great for a 16 year old.” Truth is I wanted to be a doctor, probably cause I had a lot of interaction with them because of the polio. But what happened to me was Coltrane. The first time I saw the group in 1962 I vibed that there was more than meets the eye. I had to know what’s going on behind the curtain. Coltrane taught me that art is much more than what you think it may be.
G: WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE REMEMBERED FOR WHEN THEY PUT YOU IN THE PINE BOX?
LIEB: Education. I feel that’s what I do best.
G: TELL ME THREE BOOKS THAT YOU WISH EVERYONE YOU MEET WOULD READ
LIEB: Dostoevsky’s The Idiot, Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway, and Philip Roth’s The Human Stain
G: YOU SURVIVED POLIO. WHAT’S YOUR TAKE ON THE WHOLE CORONA VIRUS THING?
LIEB: If you want to get religious, it’s retribution for the way we’ve treated the planet and ourselves. On the other hand, it’s a terrible misfortune. If you understand the history of the world, it’s not the first plague.
